| Author |
 Topic  |
|
|
Calvin Rees
Administrator
USA
18514 Posts |
 Posted - April 07 2008 : 06:20:09
|
Walters in hot seat over Dem delegates
by: RANDY KREHBIEL World Staff Writer
4/7/2008 12:00 AM
Former Oklahoma Gov. David Walters has been known to stick his face in a propeller before, figuratively speaking, so maybe it shouldn’t be surprising that he’s about to do it again.
As the governor from 1991 to 1995, Walters took on what were then unpopular causes, including a state lottery to benefit education and a health care tax to pay for uninsured care. He challenged Jim Inhofe for a U.S. Senate seat and ventured into Pakistan, where his company is about to build its second electric power plant.
Now he may have to help referee the fight over the Michigan and Florida delegates to the Democratic National Convention.
Walters is the “principal chair” of the convention rules committee, which ultimately will have to ratify a solution to the dilemma.
“It’s a serious issue,” Walters said by phone last week in his Oklahoma City office. “As a practical matter, we don’t want to disenfranchise several million voters.”
The national party stripped Florida and Michigan of their delegates for having their primaries in January, contrary to party rules. Democratic candidates agreed not to campaign in either state.
Sen. Hillary Clinton received 50 percent of the Florida vote to 33 percent for Sen. Barack Obama, who is now the Democratic front-runner, and 14 percent for John Edwards, who has suspended his campaign.
Clinton received 55 percent in Michigan. Obama was not on the ballot, but 40 percent voted “uncommitted.” Both states contemplated “doover” primaries or caucuses but decided against that. Clinton wants the results from both states to stand and their delegates allocated accordingly.
That would give her 80 delegates from Michigan and 113 from Florida. Obama would get 71 delegates from Florida and Edwards would get 13.
Walters said he proposed to let Clinton keep her Michigan delegates and assign the uncommitteds — about 55 delegates — to Obama.
For Florida, he said, he suggested letting the vote stand but cutting the delegate total in half.
Aside from the fairness issue, it’s a difficult problem for the Democrats because they do not want to alienate Michigan and Florida voters in what promises to be a tight race.
“If we give Obama all the undecideds in Michigan, it’ll be about even,” Walters said. “If we cut the Florida delegates in half, it won’t be enough to make a big difference.”
Under Walters’ proposal, Clinton would see a net gain of about 45 delegates. Most calculations show Obama leading Clinton by 135 to 150 delegates.
Both candidates are well short of the 2,024 needed to get the nomination.
Any proposed solution will first go to the convention credentials committee, whose members include Sue Bennett of Tulsa and state Rep. Mike Shelton of Oklahoma City.
From there it would go to the rules committee. Besides Walters, the committee’s chairwomen are Sunita Leeds of Colorado and Mary Rose Oakar of Ohio. Oklahomans on the committee are former Oklahoma Attorney General Mike Turpen, who is running Clinton’s campaign in the state, and Krista Eckhoff, who is associated with the Obama camp. The rules committee won’t meet until just before the convention in late August, but Walters said he was getting ready for it.
“I’ve actually spent quite a bit of time on it,” he said. “I’ve talked to a lot of folks.”
He expects to meet with the party’s national chairman, Howard Dean, who is coming to Oklahoma City on Monday.
“I’ll be a lot smarter on Tuesday,” Walters said.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Randy Krehbiel 581-8365
randy.krehbiel@tulsaworld.com
|
Calvin Rees
|
|
|
Calvin Rees
Administrator
USA
18514 Posts |
Posted - April 07 2008 : 06:22:46
|
| Is't David a Clinton supporter? |
Calvin Rees
|
 |
|
|
Tim Reese
Administrator
USA
18234 Posts |
Posted - April 07 2008 : 06:53:07
|
| He's a FOB and FOCJ&T |
|
|
|
ocugrad
Activist
USA
130 Posts |
Posted - April 07 2008 : 08:41:44
|
| JUST SPLIT THEM DOWN THE BLOODY MIDDLE!! IT'S FAIR, IT'S EASY, AND IT'S QUICK. NO DISENFRANCHISMENT, NO CONFLICT FROM THE INTELLIGENT PEOPLE, AND WE ALL GET WHAT WE WANT. |
Jeremiah Elix
No one can truly realize that we stand on the shoulders of some giants, but we are being supported by the hands of countless Lilliputians. - Jeremiah D. Elix 11/26/2008
|
|
|
|
davidglover
Activist
USA
463 Posts |
Posted - April 07 2008 : 08:44:00
|
| He looked and acted like a Clinton supporter at the Bill Clinton event in Norman earlier this year. |
|
|
|
okiecrat
Leader
3485 Posts |
Posted - April 07 2008 : 12:25:09
|
| If he is a Clintonista, he certainly does not appear to be doing her any great favors. |
Gary D. Klein
quote:
“Politics is like the circus; the worst job is cleaning up after the elephants."
James Carville
|
|
|
|
Stan McKay
Grassroots
USA
39 Posts |
Posted - April 07 2008 : 19:35:17
|
Splitting down the middle IS disenfranchisement. It arbitarily divides the delegate without any regard whatsoever. I could understand reducing the number of delegates like the Republicans are doing with Florida to uphold Mr. Dean's rules. Some allocation of "undicideds" needs to be made. Alternatively, do a revote. But an arbitrary 50/50 split completely disregards any view of the will of the voters of these states. The only thing it accompishes is that a few party regulars get to party in Denver.
|
|
|
|
kathy
Leader
USA
2688 Posts |
Posted - April 07 2008 : 21:23:23
|
At best, a revote is the only fair way to go. Otherwise, it rewards a candidate for ignoring the party's rules. It is truly regrettable that 2 states have put our Party in this position.
I heard that Florida Republicans sort of crammed it down our throats, and if that is the case then it is the whipsaw effect from protecting a 2-party system in this country. Was there a time when the Party knew that Florida Republicans forced a primary change and did nothing to distinguish that from intentionally moving up the Democratic Primary for a selfish reason? Because if the latter is really what happened, then I guess folks have to live with the consequences of bad decisions.
Maybe:
1. Seat the delegates.
2. Split it evenly on the first round.
3. On the second round, let the games begin!
|
"Like Atlas, we carry the immense burden of the country on our shoulders, waiting for the day seemingly long into the future when the American people say, that will do." ~Army of Dude |
|
|
|
Tim Reese
Administrator
USA
18234 Posts |
Posted - April 07 2008 : 21:40:26
|
The Florida Bill was sponsored by a Democrat.... there were a few weak... oh don't do that... wink wink winks in the crowd.
They need to change the rules...AFTER... this game is over.
Unfortunately they want to change the rules half way through.
The only solution is a re-vote or a caucaus. Fair and square.
|
|
|
|
Ownthinker
Leader
1066 Posts |
Posted - April 08 2008 : 00:14:04
|
quote:
Originally posted by Tim Reese
The Florida Bill was sponsored by a Democrat.... there were a few weak... oh don't do that... wink wink winks in the crowd.
They need to change the rules...AFTER... this game is over.
Unfortunately they want to change the rules half way through.
The only solution is a re-vote or a caucaus. Fair and square.
Tim, you said, "They need to change the rules...AFTER...this game is over." This means that Florida and Michigan are out of this election cycle. Period.
Like it or not, a re-vote or a caucus is changing the rules. Nothing is fair and square about changing the rules now.
I think the rules stink. I think most of the whole da*n process stinks, but it's too late now.
|
|
|
|
davidglover
Activist
USA
463 Posts |
Posted - April 08 2008 : 08:56:28
|
| I enjoyed a good conversation with David Walters last night at the Dean Rally. I had never talked with him before, seems like a very good guy. He understands Oklahoma politics extremely well. Easy to talk with, well reasoned, smart and refreshing. |
|
|
|
okiecrat
Leader
3485 Posts |
Posted - April 08 2008 : 11:39:47
|
I'm not sure how things work in Michigan but a revote in Florida is a laughable fantasy since we would have to get the Repugnican majority in the Florida Legislature to even allow a vote. If anyone thinks they will vote to spend the money necessary to make Democrats' lives easier, I've got some prime beachfront property in Arizona for sale.
The only viable alternative is an Iowa style caucus and that would require a state convention FIRST to amend their party constitution and bylaws to set it up. Is the DNC going to fork over the thousands of dollars all that would cost? Probably not! |
Gary D. Klein
quote:
“Politics is like the circus; the worst job is cleaning up after the elephants."
James Carville
|
Edited by - okiecrat on April 08 2008 11:44:47 |
|
|
|
deepfriedsushi
Grassroots
93 Posts |
Posted - April 08 2008 : 12:08:36
|
Bottom line: tough. The Florida and Michigan legislators knew the rules and willingly violated them. If those delegations aren't seated and those states are shut out of the primary process, it's not the fault of Clinton, Obama, Dean, David Walters, Margaret Thatcher or the tooth fairy. It's the legislators' fault. It sucks for the voters of those states and I know I'd be pissed too, but they need to take out their frustrations on their legislators.
As for this time around, the rules may stink, but be glad we've got at least some people defending the idea that rules have to be followed. It's probably not realistic at this point to have a caucus or re-vote in states as large as these. Vote by mail would be great except these states have never done that before. Online voting is out of the question. There really aren't many good options left: split 50/50, split according to the percentage of pledged delegates nationally, let the party leaders fight it out... not very democratic, but them's the breaks sometimes. |
This machine kills fascists. |
|
|
|
Balderdash
Leader
USA
2128 Posts |
Posted - April 08 2008 : 12:24:14
|
| Clinton should not be awarded any delegates from either state. She broke the DNC rules by remaining on the ballots after she was told not to. The only way to resolve the issue is to have a revote or disregard MI and FL. Both states were given advanced notices not to push up their primaries or they would not count, both ignored the rules and did so anyway. Neither should be awarded and special treatment for disregarding the rules. |
|
|
|
dolebludger
Organizer
USA
893 Posts |
Posted - April 10 2008 : 12:33:04
|
Balderdash:
Agreed -- neither candidate should get any delegate or Super delegate votes from FL or MI. These states were given fair warning of their violation. Then, The DNC agreed to give both states a "mulligan" by having a revote or caucuses. The states refused this opportunity, to which they weren't even entitled. The DNC was more than fair. We must have rules, and if we have rules, they must be enforced.
Now at this late date, I can think of NO way to allow delegate votes to be counted from these states without being unfair to one candidate or the other. Yes, I have my own favorite Democratic candidate, but I do not hate the other! What we need most of all is to have a clean win for one of these candidates. I don't see any way this can happen if FL and MI are allowed "in" under some arbitrary formula. |
|
|
|
Earl Cofer
Outspoken Leader
USA
10286 Posts |
Posted - April 10 2008 : 14:59:36
|
So in order to please Howard Dean and the people who made those stupid rules giving an unjust say so to Iowa and New Hampshire, we allow the Republicans to carry two States that the Democrats need? Sounds like the same old stuff that has given us Dubya.
In spite of what people with set motives think, I don't believe the delegates to the convention will throw away two large states votes, just to make a point and go along with a dumbass policy, that lets two small states that mostly vote Republican elect another Republican. |
If my feet would fit a railroad track, I guess I'd been a train. -Billy Joe Shaver |
|
|
|
dolebludger
Organizer
USA
893 Posts |
Posted - April 10 2008 : 18:56:45
|
Earl:
It is just that I don't understand how delegates from FL and MI could be allocated under our rules at this point in time. If you know of a way, let it be so. |
|
|
|
Earl Cofer
Outspoken Leader
USA
10286 Posts |
Posted - April 11 2008 : 08:12:03
|
Damned if I know either Doleburger. But I am betting the delegates to the convention figure it out. If we have a declared winner, it will be a simple project. If the nomination is still in the air, it will be a blood bath.
But I sure hope that someone in the Democratic Party, hopefully our next President, does something about the way the Presidential candidate is chosen. The way it is now is what we in the Old Navy used to call a Chinese Fire Drill, All hands on the port side go starboard, everyone on the starboard side go port, all hands in the middle stand by to direct traffic. |
If my feet would fit a railroad track, I guess I'd been a train. -Billy Joe Shaver |
|
|
|
Calvin Rees
Administrator
USA
18514 Posts |
Posted - April 11 2008 : 10:36:07
|
| I thik that Tim Reese and myself should pick the Democratic Nominee each time. |
Calvin Rees
|
|
|
|
dolebludger
Organizer
USA
893 Posts |
Posted - April 11 2008 : 10:36:34
|
Earl:
Agreed that we need a lot of rule chainging. Our currrent system is too vulnerable to the kind of two-way deadlock (and worse, three way deadlock) that we have now. Then we have those Super delegates who appear to have no rules as to how they vote, making them essentially loose cannons. But all of this is about 2012. For 2008, we have to strictly apply the rules we have, or else we will have a blood bath beyond imagination -- that will continue after the convention. |
|
|
|
1968 Activist
Leader
4662 Posts |
Posted - April 11 2008 : 13:39:34
|
quote:
Originally posted by Tim Reese
He's a FOB and FOCJ&T
CJ&T? I don't think I've heard that one before. Could you translate? |
Jeff
"Few will have the greatness to bend history itself; but each of us can work to change a small portion of events, and in the total of all those acts will be written the history of this generation...Each time a man stands up for an ideal, or acts to improve the lot of others, or strikes out against injustice, he sends forth a tiny ripple of hope...those ripples build a current that can sweep down the mightiest walls of oppression and resistance."
Robert F. Kennedy |
|
|
|
1968 Activist
Leader
4662 Posts |
Posted - April 11 2008 : 13:40:20
|
quote:
Originally posted by ocugrad
JUST SPLIT THEM DOWN THE BLOODY MIDDLE!! IT'S FAIR, IT'S EASY, AND IT'S QUICK. NO DISENFRANCHISMENT, NO CONFLICT FROM THE INTELLIGENT PEOPLE, AND WE ALL GET WHAT WE WANT.
Why is that fair in Florida, where both were on the ballot? It is still disenfranchisement, since it would be saying that "you get delegates, but your vote didn't mean a damn thing." If you subscribe to that as a solution, then I assume you have no problem with super delegates voting for whomever they want, for what ever reason they want. If not, please explain. |
Jeff
"Few will have the greatness to bend history itself; but each of us can work to change a small portion of events, and in the total of all those acts will be written the history of this generation...Each time a man stands up for an ideal, or acts to improve the lot of others, or strikes out against injustice, he sends forth a tiny ripple of hope...those ripples build a current that can sweep down the mightiest walls of oppression and resistance."
Robert F. Kennedy |
Edited by - 1968 Activist on April 11 2008 13:42:54 |
|
|
|
1968 Activist
Leader
4662 Posts |
Posted - April 11 2008 : 13:45:34
|
quote:
Originally posted by kathy
At best, a revote is the only fair way to go. Otherwise, it rewards a candidate for ignoring the party's rules. It is truly regrettable that 2 states have put our Party in this position.
I heard that Florida Republicans sort of crammed it down our throats, and if that is the case then it is the whipsaw effect from protecting a 2-party system in this country. Was there a time when the Party knew that Florida Republicans forced a primary change and did nothing to distinguish that from intentionally moving up the Democratic Primary for a selfish reason? Because if the latter is really what happened, then I guess folks have to live with the consequences of bad decisions.
Maybe:
1. Seat the delegates.
2. Split it evenly on the first round.
3. On the second round, let the games begin!
Which candidate ignored the Party rules? |
Jeff
"Few will have the greatness to bend history itself; but each of us can work to change a small portion of events, and in the total of all those acts will be written the history of this generation...Each time a man stands up for an ideal, or acts to improve the lot of others, or strikes out against injustice, he sends forth a tiny ripple of hope...those ripples build a current that can sweep down the mightiest walls of oppression and resistance."
Robert F. Kennedy |
|
|
|
1968 Activist
Leader
4662 Posts |
Posted - April 11 2008 : 13:49:54
|
quote:
Originally posted by Balderdash
Clinton should not be awarded any delegates from either state. She broke the DNC rules by remaining on the ballots after she was told not to.
That is a load of crap. Obama was on the ballot in Florida, too. Nobody was told not to be on the ballot. They were told not to campaign in the state before the primary. Neither Clinton nor Obama did. Obama chose to take his name off the ballot in Michigan. It was his choice. Clinton chose to leave her name on the ballot. It was her choice. No rules were violated in either state. |
Jeff
"Few will have the greatness to bend history itself; but each of us can work to change a small portion of events, and in the total of all those acts will be written the history of this generation...Each time a man stands up for an ideal, or acts to improve the lot of others, or strikes out against injustice, he sends forth a tiny ripple of hope...those ripples build a current that can sweep down the mightiest walls of oppression and resistance."
Robert F. Kennedy |
|
|
|
Earl Cofer
Outspoken Leader
USA
10286 Posts |
Posted - April 11 2008 : 13:50:27
|
| It still boils down to whether the Democratic Party is willing to throw out two large states delegates. If they do the Republicans probably win those states and the election. I don't think the leaders of the Democratic Party are that dumb or if you wish, that principled. The name of the game is winning elections and the super-delegates are pros. |
If my feet would fit a railroad track, I guess I'd been a train. -Billy Joe Shaver |
|
|
|
1968 Activist
Leader
4662 Posts |
Posted - April 11 2008 : 13:51:46
|
quote:
Originally posted by Calvin Rees
I thik that Tim Reese and myself should pick the Democratic Nominee each time.
I agree. And Jane and I have veto power over your choice. |
Jeff
"Few will have the greatness to bend history itself; but each of us can work to change a small portion of events, and in the total of all those acts will be written the history of this generation...Each time a man stands up for an ideal, or acts to improve the lot of others, or strikes out against injustice, he sends forth a tiny ripple of hope...those ripples build a current that can sweep down the mightiest walls of oppression and resistance."
Robert F. Kennedy |
|
|
|
Calvin Rees
Administrator
USA
18514 Posts |
Posted - April 11 2008 : 14:48:03
|
quote:
Originally posted by 1968 Activist
quote:
Originally posted by Calvin Rees
I thik that Tim Reese and myself should pick the Democratic Nominee each time.
I agree. And Jane and I have veto power over your choice.
Now that would be a cold day in Florida |
Calvin Rees
|
|
|
|
1968 Activist
Leader
4662 Posts |
Posted - April 11 2008 : 23:24:43
|
| Hey, a guy can dream, can't he? |
Jeff
"Few will have the greatness to bend history itself; but each of us can work to change a small portion of events, and in the total of all those acts will be written the history of this generation...Each time a man stands up for an ideal, or acts to improve the lot of others, or strikes out against injustice, he sends forth a tiny ripple of hope...those ripples build a current that can sweep down the mightiest walls of oppression and resistance."
Robert F. Kennedy |
|
|
|
soonersusan1954
Leader
2678 Posts |
Posted - April 12 2008 : 00:43:58
|
I second the motion that Calvin Rees be allowed to pick the Democratic Nominee each time.... |
|
|
|
ocugrad
Activist
USA
130 Posts |
Posted - April 12 2008 : 05:36:25
|
| Calvin, you have my vote! |
Jeremiah Elix
No one can truly realize that we stand on the shoulders of some giants, but we are being supported by the hands of countless Lilliputians. - Jeremiah D. Elix 11/26/2008
|
|
|
|
Earl Cofer
Outspoken Leader
USA
10286 Posts |
Posted - April 12 2008 : 10:35:20
|
| Of course if Calvin had picked this years Democratic Nominee we would have the Senator from New Mexico instead of either of the current choices. |
If my feet would fit a railroad track, I guess I'd been a train. -Billy Joe Shaver |
|
|
|
Gin
Leader
USA
2523 Posts |
Posted - April 12 2008 : 15:59:23
|
Where are the stone tablets that say the same states get to go first every single election year? Why don't they simply have a lottery at each National Convention, where each state draws a number to determine the order of the states for holding their primaries or caucuses?
That would be a fair, impartial system with each state getting the same chance to be first last or somewhere in between.
With this system, there could be a rule that any state not abiding by the order of their draw would, under no circumstances be allowed to have their delegates seated, or, in the alternative,that state would automatically be put last in line to hold their primary in the next election.
A system like this might make all the states feel less compelled to change the time of their primaries, because no state would be seen as having the preferential status of always getting to go first.
|
Gin |
Edited by - Gin on April 12 2008 16:05:19 |
|
|
|
1968 Activist
Leader
4662 Posts |
Posted - April 12 2008 : 22:08:01
|
| The tablets are buried under the 40 yard line at Giants stadium, right next to Jimmy Hoffa. |
Jeff
"Few will have the greatness to bend history itself; but each of us can work to change a small portion of events, and in the total of all those acts will be written the history of this generation...Each time a man stands up for an ideal, or acts to improve the lot of others, or strikes out against injustice, he sends forth a tiny ripple of hope...those ripples build a current that can sweep down the mightiest walls of oppression and resistance."
Robert F. Kennedy |
|
|
|
edwardwhiteokc
Leader
USA
2333 Posts |
Posted - April 13 2008 : 17:41:04
|
| Michigan is so blue that no matter what happens, the D will probably still win that crucial state. Florida, however, is another matter. If the Ds tell Florida tough shit, that will significantly increase the odds (IMHO guarantee) that the R will will that evenly split state. If the Ds don't win Florida, they probably won't win the White House. Who here thinks that's acceptable to uphold "party rules"? I think it's a disgusting, abhorrent possibility. Something MUST, and I mean MUST be done to seat Florida's delegates. |
|
|
|
Ownthinker
Leader
1066 Posts |
Posted - April 13 2008 : 20:18:37
|
quote:
Originally posted by edwardwhiteokc
Who here thinks that's acceptable to uphold "party rules"?
I do. |
|
|
|
cspeaker
Grassroots
88 Posts |
Posted - April 14 2008 : 10:20:54
|
quote:
Originally posted by Earl Cofer
Of course if Calvin had picked this years Democratic Nominee we would have the Senator from New Mexico instead of either of the current choices.
And then we would have selected the best candidate!
|
Just another lousy day in Paradise! |
|
|
|
Bono_wannabe
Activist
USA
136 Posts |
Posted - April 14 2008 : 11:35:44
|
| The party is once again in danger of standing on its princples and not bending or at least adapting to the situation at hand. We are about to alienate Florida and Michigan voters who will in turn stay home or vote for the Repugs, and we will again lose an election we should win in a walk. At least David Walters is trying to remedy a situation that has no good resolutions, only bad and worse ones. |
|
|
|
edwardwhiteokc
Leader
USA
2333 Posts |
Posted - April 14 2008 : 11:50:34
|
quote:
Originally posted by Ownthinker
quote:
Originally posted by edwardwhiteokc
Who here thinks that's acceptable to uphold "party rules"?
I do.
In context, I was asking if, in view of the probability of losing the White House as a result, you think "party rules" must absolutely be adhered you. You answer, yes, it's worth losing Casa Blanca, is that what you're saying? |
|
|
|
Ownthinker
Leader
1066 Posts |
Posted - April 14 2008 : 13:31:26
|
quote:
Originally posted by edwardwhiteokc
In context, I was asking if, in view of the probability of losing the White House as a result, you think "party rules" must absolutely be adhered you. You answer, yes, it's worth losing Casa Blanca, is that what you're saying?
I am saying that WHATEVER THE OUTCOME, the rules as established by the DNC and its Rules Committee should be adhered to for this election.
I am one who does not believe that rules are to be broken. For good or for bad, I believe we must live our lives and rule our nation on principle.
That is the only way, in my opinion, to have a stable and predictable
society. No wonder people think the worst about politics. It's dog eat dog, be underhanded, lie, change the rules, and do whatever it takes to win.
The rules could be changed and McCain STILL could win. Then, what do we have? We have a bunch of unprincipled Democrats who can't reply on any type of rules the NEXT go around.
This is my opinion. Certainly brighter minds may disagree.
|
|
|
| |
Topic |
|
Topic Locked
