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vhutchison
Leader
1057 Posts |
 Posted - May 12 2008 : 21:36:34
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ALERT: HB 2633 PASSES HOUSE, WILL GO TO GOVERNOR.
WHAT YOU CAN DO!
As expected HB 2633 with Rep. Sally Kern’s ‘Religious Viewpoints Antidiscrimnation Act’ passed a House floor vote today (12 May) on a vote of 70 to 28 and will now go to the Governor. PLEASE call or send a message to Governor Henry to veto this bill! If you have already sent an e-mail, then make a phone call, or if you called, please also send an e-mail. We need to be sure that Gov. Henry understands that there is strong opposition to this egregious bill.
ACTION ALERT: ASK GOVERNOR HENRY TO VETO HB 2633 WITH REP. KERN’S “RELIGIOUS VIEWPOINTS ANTIDISCRIMINATION ACT” ADDED AS AN AMENDMENT IN THE SENATE.
This WILL be our last chance to kill this awful bill that would allow religion into public schools beyond that already allowed. Even if you e-mailed already, please also call, or, if you called, send as an email! A flood of messages opposing the bill might well convince the Governor of the problems such a bill would have in discouraging economic development in high tech/med tech industries. The bill would again portray Oklahoma as a backward state. Messages can be short – just express your strong opposition to the bill and ask for the Governor to exercise his veto for the good of the State!
On the Governor’s web site at:
http://www.governor.state.ok.us/
Click on ‘Contact’ in ribbon near the top of the web site.
In the left column click on Message to the Governor (or click this link).
Complete the form and send.
Perhaps a phone call or Fax expressing your opposition to HB 2633 to the number below would be better, but in any case do send a message! Time is important and messages should go as soon as possible, since the Governor could act on the bill at any time.
Office of the Governor
2300 N. Lincoln Blvd., Room 212
Oklahoma City, OK 73105
Telephone: (405) 521-2342
Fax: (405) 521-3353
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[Here is an AP report on HB 2633 passage]:
Governor gets religious expression bill
by: TIM TALLEY Associated Press
5/12/2008 5:53 PM
OKLAHOMA CITY -- Gov. Brad Henry's desk is the next stop for legislation
given final approval by the Oklahoma House Monday that supporters said will
protect students' rights to express their religious viewpoints in public
school classrooms.
Opponents warned that the measure may have unintended consequences and could
lead to classroom confrontations and disruption.
"If we're going to have school, then we need to forget about this," said
Rep. Ray McCarter, D-Marlow, a former school administrator. Under the bill,
a student with a different religious viewpoint than one expressed by another
student could pontificate to his classmates and disrupt class, McCarter
said.
"It could be a radical Muslim. You can't stop them," he said.
House members voted 70-28 to send the Senate-passed bill to Henry. A
spokesman for the governor, communications director Paul Sund, said he does
not know whether the governor will sign it.
Although lawmakers passed the measure, an emergency clause that would place
the bill in effect upon the governor's signature failed to get the required
two-thirds vote of the 101-member House.
Supporters said the measure codifies a series of U.S. Supreme Court
decisions concerning religious expression in public schools and will serve
as a guide to public school administrators on what kind of religious
expression is permitted in the classroom.
"This bill will prevent frivolous lawsuits," said its author, Rep. Sally
Kern, R-Oklahoma City. Kern said it will help eliminate the kinds of
situations in which the American Civil Liberties Union has sued a school
system over religious expression in schools.
"It will save our schools a lot of money," she said.
Kern also said it will give school religion clubs and individual students
new support to express themselves in school.
"Unreasonable fear of lawsuits currently leads many school officials to
unnecessarily censor students," Kern said. "This bill simply ensures that
students' First Amendment rights are protected."
"This will make a statement to the students of Oklahoma that we support
you," said Rep. Mike Reynolds, R-Oklahoma City. "America is a Christian
nation."
But McCarter and others said they are concerned about the possible
consequences of the bill, particularly classroom confrontations over
differing religious viewpoints.
"This is a lot more dangerous than you think it is," McCarter said.
He said the bill is not needed because religious expression is already
allowed in Oklahoma schools.
"They have prayer at the flagpole. Nobody discriminates against that,"
McCarter said. "They can pray all day long in that school class if they want
to."
Rep. Ed Cannaday, D-Porum, described the legislation as a "very serious,
problematic bill for our schools."
A former school teacher and administrator, Cannaday said he never had a
problem in leading students in a discussion of the spiritual nature of
things.
"This bill is so unnecessary," he said.
Copyright © 2008, World Publishing Co. All rights reserved
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectID=12&articleID=20080512_
12_OKL57105
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tvlampboy
Activist
USA
300 Posts |
Posted - May 12 2008 : 22:14:09
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What's most hilarious of all is Kern's suggesting that this bill's implementation would somehow (!!!) stop litigation. In truth, her bill would be opening this state up to unheard of litigation and accompanying , astronomical legal costs. The bill itself is both patently unconstitutional and utterly unnecessary.
When this state is going to wake up and pull its publicly pious head out of its backward ass is more than I may ever know. |
"Free societies are societies in motion, and with motion comes tension, dissent, friction. Free people strike sparks, and those sparks are the best evidence of freedom's existence."
Sir Salman Rushdie
*****
"If you believe in fairies at the bottom of the garden, you are deemed fit for the bin. If you believe in transubstantiation, parthenogenesis and the rest of it, you’re deemed fit to run the country."
Jonathan Meades
*****
"My last vestige of 'hands off religion' respect disappeared in the smoke and choking dust of September 11th, 2001, followed by the 'National Day of Prayer,' when prelates and pastors did their tremulous Martin Luther King impersonations and urged people of mutually incompatible faiths to hold hands, united in homage to the very force that caused the problem in the first place."
Dr. Richard Dawkins |
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vhutchison
Leader
1057 Posts |
Posted - May 12 2008 : 22:43:52
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Kern told several lies during the floor debate. She was asked if Sandy Garrett had approved her bill. Kern said she had in a telephone call. Another Representative later said that he had called Garrett's office and that Garrett had NOT given her support. Who would you beleive? No way Sandy would agree with Kern's crap.
Kern also misrepresented several aspects of her bill, including the statement that it would prevent lawsuits. Just the opposite is happening in Texas where the nearly identical bill is now law. The Dallas Morning News predicted the problem in an editorial, "Watch the Lawsuits Come Rolling In.' If Henry signs this stupid bill, Edmondson will have a lot of work, since the bill requires the AG to defend any school that is sued! Thus, schools/school boards will not have to worry about paying legal costs - we taxpayers will and Kern said that her bill would SAVE money!
PLEASE, good citizens, do send the Gov a message to veto HB 2633. |
Edited by - vhutchison on May 12 2008 22:48:57 |
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drstones
Leader
3663 Posts |
Posted - May 12 2008 : 23:11:43
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If I were a public school teacher, and this law were to pass, I'd tempted to kill it with kindness by attaching a "Kern Box" to the end of an assignment, wherein students might place any irrelevant commentary, religious or otherwise, so that it would not interfere, with, you know, actually assessing their ability to complete the assignment.
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Keith
Now a sober voice of reason at the high end of the FM Dial ...
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crusty-rusty
Organizer
France
940 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2008 : 02:14:33
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America may be a Christian nation [sic] but they are much more Christian in Europe - we just enjoyed a day off work to celebrate Pentecost, one of several Christian holidays of the year. Guess that makes Sally and and her sillies look like heathens!
Seriously, there seems to be a direct correlation between how empty the churches are and how free and tolerant the people are. Church attendance is about 20% and I suspect that is mostly Muslim's. Who do Europeans tend to turn to for guidance (except the UK)? Intellectuals and scientists. Imagine that - they tend to trust people who are educated and *know* something.
This bill, whatever its real intention, will have the effect of further debilitating education.
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One finds what one is looking for.
Does anybody else smell frog boiling?? |
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mccurtaincountyyellowdog
Outspoken Leader
USA
15921 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2008 : 08:06:02
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Of course the bill is in Texas.
Few, if any, of the bills the Republicans come up with are written by them. Almost all are pulled off the ALEC database BEFORE they've been tested in other states.
Why actually think of something when someone else can? Nevermind the impact in Oklahoma. Nope, if it was good enough for anyone else, it's good enough for us. |
Jane Luttrell
“Society exists only as a mental concept; in the real world there are only individuals.” ~ Oscar Wilde
"You are who you pander to" ~~ Juliet Lapidos, Slate Magazine, discussing Bush and Palin
"And remember the corporation is, by nature, sociopathic because no human in it is ever responsible."~~somebody named MacKenna commenting on Matt Taibbi's portion of The Smirking Chimp
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drstones
Leader
3663 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2008 : 08:14:00
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Jane, thanks for bringing up ALEC!
ALEC is the American Legislative Exchange Council. Numerous legislators across both major parties are members of ALEC, which charges about $5,000/year for the membership. ALEC has a huge inventory of "plug-and-play" legislation, much of which will seem familiar to Oklahoma politics watchers.
Given the handful of full-time staff at 2300 Lincoln, that legislation is coming from a variety of places. So, in addition to agencies and lobbyists drafting laws, we also have "Law-in-a-box," which you can buy off the shelf and tailor to fit, not unlike "Cliff's Notes" for law.
Some journalists in the state have been working on the ALEC angle, but I do not know if anyone ahs been able to get access to the data base.
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Keith
Now a sober voice of reason at the high end of the FM Dial ...
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mccurtaincountyyellowdog
Outspoken Leader
USA
15921 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2008 : 08:51:16
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You or I have to pay $5,000....it's about $100 to legislators, Doc.
If you would have the journalists get in touch with me, we may be able to persuade some of the Democratic legislators sick of seeing these bills to help them out. |
Jane Luttrell
“Society exists only as a mental concept; in the real world there are only individuals.” ~ Oscar Wilde
"You are who you pander to" ~~ Juliet Lapidos, Slate Magazine, discussing Bush and Palin
"And remember the corporation is, by nature, sociopathic because no human in it is ever responsible."~~somebody named MacKenna commenting on Matt Taibbi's portion of The Smirking Chimp
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Rob Abiera
Activist
256 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2008 : 09:15:17
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| I think everyone should also write to their legislator and tell them to investigate the possibility that Kern lied on the House floor and if so she should be censured for doing so. Tell them if they don't do that they will be branded as DUPES FOR KERN! |
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Mitch™
Leader
USA
1855 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2008 : 09:25:45
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WE GOTTA HAVE SALLY'S NEW LAW SO RELIGIUS FUNDERMENTALAST STUDENTS'LL STAND UP TO THEM SCHOOL TEACHERS!! AT LEAST SUMBODY'S LOOKIN OUT 4 THE 2-YEAR-OLDS!!
SIDES= LOOKIE AT THE CONSTUTUTION. THE 1ST COMMANDMENT GIVES EVERBODY= RELIGIUS FREEDOM TO PUSH ARE PETICULER RELIGION OFF ON EVERBODY ELSE.
SEPERATION OF CHURCH & STATE MY ASS!! REP KERNS IS MAKING SHORE THEM PETIFILE GOVERMINT SCHOOLS TOE THE LIE.
MITCH
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progressv
Leader
USA
1750 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2008 : 09:55:08
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"E" mailed and called----
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"America---Change it, or lose it".
"Green is not simply a new form of generating electric power, it is a new form of generating national power---Period."
Rothkopf
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n/a
deleted
9 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2008 : 10:31:16
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I learned this morning that HB-2211 was moved into HB 2633. The following message is what I sent to my State Representative, Senator, and to the Governor when I had read HB 2211 as to what I saw was wrong with the bill. If indeed the full text was included in HB 2633, this is what is wrong with the proposed law:
1. It takes away local control from a school board,
2. It contains mandates that will cost money, even though not very much, but there are requirements of printing and manhours for policy development.
3. Constitutional Issues:
- This creates a Limited Public Forum which requires strict scrutiny of Freedom of Speech as ruled by the Supreme Court in Hazelwood School District v Kuhkmer, 1988, yet this bill limits who can have this free speech. In so doing, there can exist a violation of the 14th Amendment's equal treatment under the law clause. If the school house is a Closed Forum, then speech can be censored as described by several Supreme Court cases.However, when a Limited Forum is allowed, speech cannot be censored regardless of the content. While this bill opens the door for religious speech, this would also have to include radical Islamic speech, Ku Klux Klan speech, or other speech that could call for the overthrow of the US government or the like.
- This Limited Public Forum is opened up for football games in which the Supreme Court has ruled against prayer over a PA system that was established by district policy and policy that dictated whether a prayer would be given and a process to elect the pray-er in Santa Fe v Does, 2000. This bill establishes a procedure that determines who could give religious speech and when it could be given. In effect, it allows a student to make a football game, athletic contest, a school assembly, opening exercise at school into a religious or solemn occasion at the whim of a student and make all those in attendance captive to this particular speech or event - regardless of the language used as long as it is not "obscene, vulgar, offensively lewd, or indecent speech or speech promoting illegal drug use." It could be offensively religious or promote the over throw of the US or many other areas that would be offensive to all sorts of people.
- Part of what this bill does is create its own version of the Equal Access Act, 1984 which withstood a Supreme Court challenge, Board of Ed of Westside Community School v Mergens, 1990.
- In Wallace v Jaffey, 1985, the Supreme Court ruled the Alabama law for a moment of silence to start the school day was unconstitutional because it had been modified with the only intent of encouraging prayer. The moment of silence was okay, but for the state to coerce people (students) to pray was wrong. It was to be absolutely voluntary. This bill's intent seems to be to inject religious activities into the school house at the whim of a student.
- No court has ever ruled against voluntary private prayer. But this bill will allow religious activities to be forced on other people at events that should be inclusive for everyone. Only the most popular or brightest will be allowed to participate "as the school district may designate." (Line 21, page 6 of the bill.)
This proposed bill is not good public policy. It is full of Constitutional questions. It provides for complete Freedom of Speech on one hand, but only for a few people. It is censorship for the masses and does not treat everyone with equality. Why must a person born with lesser mental, athletic, or social skills be subjected to the possible religious thoughts and rituals of others with no recourse to practice their brand of religion? Freedom of religion means that everyone can practice their beliefs regardless of their station in life. What is worse, this is a state directive to establish a process whereby one citizen is allowed to do this to another citizen. This is the state being excessively entangled in a religious ceremony. Students can "witness" to other students anytime they want as long as they don't interfere with the educational process. And, the student who is being "witnessed" to has the freedom to get up and leave or to tell the person to go away! ! or stop; that they don't want to hear what they have to say. In this bill, that option is not there. The other students become a captive audience to the speaker.
This bill is not good. It should be voted down. Schools have policies in place that deal with students and their freedoms of religious expression. If a school becomes in violation of the federal law and case law, they can be sued and will lose if they are indeed not allowing a student to exercise their religious freedom. This law is not needed nor is it wanted. It will cause more harm than good.
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vhutchison
Leader
1057 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2008 : 11:29:01
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1. Thanks to all who have contacted the Gov to oppose HB 2633, but we need more!
2. It is now clear that Kern lied about Sandy Garrett's approval. She also misrepresented what the bill really does. I doubt if anyone in the lege has the guts to get her censured.
3. The actual wording of Kern's bill was written by a firm of fundamentalist attorneys in Plano, Texas and was first introduced in Texas where it is now law and causing problems.
4. The original bill (HB 2211)was sent to the Senate Rules Committee where it was not heard. Then, the amendment on HB 2633 almost died on the floor of the Senate when it received a tie vote (24-24)to advance the bill without the amendment and the Lt. Gov. was not called to break the tie. Kern did not mention that fact in the House debate, only saying that the bill and its amendment passed in the Senate.
5. kenleigha: Welcome and an EXCELLENT analysis of HB 2633 amendment (formerly HB 2211). I hope you will send the same message to the Governor's Ofiice, asking for a veto |
Edited by - vhutchison on May 13 2008 11:33:37 |
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n/a
deleted
9 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2008 : 14:43:02
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| I did earlier today. |
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nipeche
Activist
460 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2008 : 21:13:10
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| welcome to the early stages of fascism |
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vhutchison
Leader
1057 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2008 : 21:44:54
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NOTES that may be of interest regarding HB 2633:
1. In a conversation today with the Lt. Gov. she was surprised, and appeared disappointed, that she was not called to break the 24-24 tie in the Senate that would have killed HB 2633; this was the first that she knew about Morgan's decision not to call her, even though Sen. Wilson asked for her vote!
2. I also have the promise of a Senator that he will ask the Attorney General for an opinion on the constitutionality of HB 2633. He asked for details and they have been sent. He also said that he may be able to get some other senators to sign on to the request. Many who have studied the bill, both here and in Texas, think that parts of the bill are clearly unconstitutional.
3. Oklahoma is getting lots of coverage for Kern's bill in the science blogosphere, some of it quite detrimental to the State. On one of the most popular science blogs in the World, Pharyngula (http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/05/get_ready_oklahoma_sally_kern.php), a posting on the topic has garnered many comments - some not very nice about the State! Several from other states have also sent messages to Gov. Henry to veto the bill - can't we in Oklahoma all do the same? More messages are needed to add to the fairly large response so far. See the information above on how to send Henry messages - PLEASE.
4. A few bloggers from other states have offered to send money to Kern's opponent in the next election. She is clearly disliked by many elsewhere and has become a major negative for Oklahoma's image. Anyone have a correct address for Kern's announced Democratic opponent that I can post to encourage them? |
Edited by - vhutchison on May 13 2008 21:50:39 |
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Raymond Emerson
Activist
USA
186 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2008 : 23:47:48
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| When the United States catches cold, Oklahoma has pneumonia. |
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crusty-rusty
Organizer
France
940 Posts |
Posted - May 14 2008 : 04:03:14
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Assuming this bill passes, it is going to be very funny to watch the koolaid drinkers' reactions when Muslim parents demand a gender segregated prayer space, 1 to 3 times per day in their schools.
The strength of these peoples' beliefs (the ones supporting the bill) is only out done by the depth of their stupidity (inability to reason). Of course, this is all just a side show to keep our attention off the real agenda - stealing from the poor to give to the rich. |
One finds what one is looking for.
Does anybody else smell frog boiling?? |
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mccurtaincountyyellowdog
Outspoken Leader
USA
15921 Posts |
Posted - May 14 2008 : 07:16:16
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quote:
Originally posted by nipeche
welcome to the early stages of fascism
If you think it's early, you haven't been paying attention. |
Jane Luttrell
“Society exists only as a mental concept; in the real world there are only individuals.” ~ Oscar Wilde
"You are who you pander to" ~~ Juliet Lapidos, Slate Magazine, discussing Bush and Palin
"And remember the corporation is, by nature, sociopathic because no human in it is ever responsible."~~somebody named MacKenna commenting on Matt Taibbi's portion of The Smirking Chimp
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CelticRaven
Outspoken Leader
USA
5006 Posts |
Posted - May 14 2008 : 08:16:34
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quote:
Originally posted by vhutchison
4. A few bloggers from other states have offered to send money to Kern's opponent in the next election. She is clearly disliked by many elsewhere and has become a major negative for Oklahoma's image. Anyone have a correct address for Kern's announced Democratic opponent that I can post to encourage them?
Folks wanting to donate to Ron Marlette's campaign should be able to find the information they need on his campaign website:
http://www.ronmarlettforhousedistrict84.com/
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Laurie Gibson
"I'm finding myself extremely thankful that the public library system already exists. Imagine trying to get that one past congress." ~ Amanda Elend.
"Wearing a flag pin doesn’t make you a patriot any more than wearing a cross makes you a good [i.e., compassionate] Christian." ~ Carol V. Hamilton
"People place their hand on the Bible and swear to uphold the Constitution; they don't put their hand on the Constitution and swear to uphold the Bible" ~ James Raskin, a constitutional law professor from American University
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." ~ Susan B. Anthony |
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vhutchison
Leader
1057 Posts |
Posted - May 14 2008 : 08:18:31
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| Ken: Your analysis of the bill is very good and includes many points we have been making, plus your citations to court cases are useful. I sent you an e-mail (via DemoOkie link) asking if you mind if I incorporate a few of your points into a summary I am providing a Senator who will ask the AG for an opinion as to the constitutionality of HB 2633. I did not yet receive an answer (I have found that the links herein sometimes do not deliver messages - Calvin, am I doing something wrong?). May I use some of your points paraphrased? Thanks for your interest and research on this! |
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John Mehring
Organizer
772 Posts |
Posted - May 14 2008 : 08:39:29
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Is this statement below factual?
Excerpted from an AP story posted above:
"This will make a statement to the students of Oklahoma that we support
you," said Rep. Mike Reynolds, R-Oklahoma City. "America is a Christian
nation."
Does Reynolds represent only Christians? |
John Mehring |
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progressv
Leader
USA
1750 Posts |
Posted - May 14 2008 : 10:26:08
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quote:
Originally posted by John Mehring
Is this statement below factual?
Excerpted from an AP story posted above:
"This will make a statement to the students of Oklahoma that we support
you," said Rep. Mike Reynolds, R-Oklahoma City. "America is a Christian
nation."
Does Reynolds represent only Christians?
Sounds like the answer may be---Yes.
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"America---Change it, or lose it".
"Green is not simply a new form of generating electric power, it is a new form of generating national power---Period."
Rothkopf
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n/a
deleted
9 Posts |
Posted - May 14 2008 : 16:32:11
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| Victor, I have just emailed you giving you permission to us what you need from my submission. In case you don't receive my email, I wanted to be able to address that issue where you could get it. And yes, I think there is a constitutional question(s) involved with the bill or at least some issues that will put OK school in direct confict with Supreme Court decisions. Does a school district follow state law or Supreme Court decisions? |
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tvlampboy
Activist
USA
300 Posts |
Posted - May 14 2008 : 17:04:21
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It's front page news right now over at OkieFunk:
http://www.okiefunk.com/ |
"Free societies are societies in motion, and with motion comes tension, dissent, friction. Free people strike sparks, and those sparks are the best evidence of freedom's existence."
Sir Salman Rushdie
*****
"If you believe in fairies at the bottom of the garden, you are deemed fit for the bin. If you believe in transubstantiation, parthenogenesis and the rest of it, you’re deemed fit to run the country."
Jonathan Meades
*****
"My last vestige of 'hands off religion' respect disappeared in the smoke and choking dust of September 11th, 2001, followed by the 'National Day of Prayer,' when prelates and pastors did their tremulous Martin Luther King impersonations and urged people of mutually incompatible faiths to hold hands, united in homage to the very force that caused the problem in the first place."
Dr. Richard Dawkins |
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gingerale
Organizer
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - May 14 2008 : 20:24:17
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| I just sent a short email to Governor Henry via his web page to please veto HB2633. |
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vhutchison
Leader
1057 Posts |
Posted - May 14 2008 : 22:30:26
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Ken: Thanks! I have used some of your points in a message to the Lt. Gov. and Sen. Sparks, at their request, and have sent it also to DEMOCRATS ONLY in the Senate. We should not waste any efforts on the Senate repugs - they will not budge. Also, of course the Supreme Court rulings apply over that of school districts, but as examples from around the country show this has not stopped schools from trying (and often accomplishing) implementation of unconstitutional religious actions. They often can not be stopped short of Federal court action, as we saw in the Kitzmiller trial in Dover, PA, or by at least the threat of a suit from ACLU, AU or other guardians of our rights.
After having spent MANY hours on this effort and having been very encouraged by the outpouring of messages to the Governor, I am now somewhat depressed as I learned tonight from a lobbyist that there may not be enough Senate Democrats to over ride a veto! Thus, maybe we need to get the Democratic Senators to get a backbone!They all voted not to advance Kern's amendment on a procedural motion, but some are wary of over riding a veto as they continue to troll for votes from the supposed extreme right religious in their districts. An override would be big news, the procedural motion in the Senate was below the radar of most voters and was not noticed, hardly so by the media.
Tonight I also received a message from the largest scientific organization in the World with millions of members, American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS), that they sent a letter to the Governor asking for a veto and giving solid reasons why it is bad. AAAS joins several other prominent national organizations that have weighed in on our side, as well as important Oklahoma organizations.
If your Senator is a Democrat (ONLY DEMOS), perhaps you can give her/him a call to be prepared to sustain a veto and to let the Governor know that. Henry has now been burned on one veto and may be shy of another without a guaranteed head count of support.
The many responses in this thread (thank you all) show that there is great interest in stopping Kern's continued crap. |
Edited by - vhutchison on May 14 2008 22:38:40 |
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Michael
Grassroots
69 Posts |
Posted - May 15 2008 : 10:20:07
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quote:
Originally posted by vhutchison
I am now somewhat depressed as I learned tonight from a lobbyist that there may not be enough Senate Democrats to over ride a veto!
I assume you mean sustain the veto. Kern would want to override.
Have you seen the cartoon in the latest Gazette? Here is a quick
and dirty scan (which will eventually be deleted):
http://rapidshare.com/files/115101160/OkLegDevolve.jpg
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vhutchison
Leader
1057 Posts |
Posted - May 15 2008 : 10:30:03
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| Michael: My big error. You are correct. So much for being in such haste. Sustain is the word. |
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Michael
Grassroots
69 Posts |
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vhutchison
Leader
1057 Posts |
Posted - May 15 2008 : 18:27:54
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I hesitated to post this rather long analysis, but there have been comments here and elsewhere about the bill that failed to realize the many dangers therein, so here is my analysis of some of the problems. It has also been sent to selected legislators and state officials:
COMMENTS ON WHY SALLY KERN’S ‘RELIGIOUS VIEWPOINTS ANTIDISCRINMINATION ACT’ AS AN AMENDMENT TO HB 2633 IS VERY BAD FOR OKLAHOMA AND WHY PARTS MAY BE UNCONSTITUTIONAL
1. It takes away local control from a school board in some instances.
2. It contains mandates that will cost money. There are requirements of printing and hours for policy development by local school districts. But more importantly, it REQUIRES that the Oklahoma Attorney General defend any lawsuits against a school/school board, thus placing the financial burden on State taxpayers and perhaps burdening the Office of the Attorney General that has more important legal matters to consider.
3. The requirement that the Attorney General to defend any law suits was designed to encourage schools/school boards to experiment with allowing some religious activities that may be unconstitutional, since they would face no financial burdens.
4. The bill creates a Limited Public Forum requiring strict scrutiny of Freedom of Speech as ruled by the Supreme Court in Hazelwood School District v Kuhkmer, 1988, yet this bill limits who can have this free speech. In so doing, there can exist a violation of the 14th Amendment's equal treatment under the law clause. If the school house is a Closed Forum, then speech can be censored as described by several Supreme Court cases. However, when a Limited Forum is allowed, speech cannot be censored regardless of the content. While this bill opens the door for religious speech, this would also have to include radical Islamic speech, Ku Klux Klan speech, or other speech that could call for the overthrow of the US government or the like.
5. This Limited Public Forum is opened up for such activities as football games in which the Supreme Court has ruled against prayer over a PA system that was established by district policy and policy that dictated whether a prayer would be given and a process to elect the prayer in Santa Fe v Does, 2000. HB 2633 establishes a procedure that determines who could give religious speech and when it could be given. In effect, it allows a student to make a football game, athletic contest, a school assembly, opening exercise at school into a religious or solemn occasion at the whim of a student and make all those in attendance captive to this particular speech or event - regardless of the language used as long as it is not "obscene, vulgar, offensively lewd, or indecent speech or speech promoting illegal drug use." It could be offensively religious or promote the over throw of the US or many other areas that would be offensive to all sorts of people. It is not limited to ‘Christian’ beliefs, although the authors intended
the bill to support ‘Christian’ activities only.
6. Part of what this bill does is create its own version of the Equal Access Act, 1984 which withstood a Supreme Court challenge, Board of Ed of Westside Community School v Mergens, 1990.
7. In Wallace v Jaffey, 1985, the Supreme Court ruled the Alabama law for a moment of silence to start the school day was unconstitutional because it had been modified with the only intent of encouraging prayer. The moment of silence was okay, but for the state to coerce people (students) to pray was wrong. It was to be absolutely voluntary. This bill's intent seems to be to inject religious activities into the school at the whim of a student.
8. No court has ever ruled against voluntary private prayer. But this bill will allow religious activities to be forced on other people at events that should be inclusive for everyone. Only the most popular or brightest will be allowed to participate "as the school district may designate." (Line 21, page 6 of the original HB 2211 bill.)
This proposed bill is very bad public policy. It is full of Constitutional questions. It provides for complete Freedom of Speech on one hand, but only for a few people. It is censorship for the masses and does not treat everyone with equality. Why must a person born with lesser mental, athletic, or social skills be subjected to the possible religious thoughts and rituals of others with no recourse to practice their brand of religion? Freedom of religion means that everyone can practice their beliefs regardless of their station in life. What is worse, this is a state directive to establish a process whereby one citizen is allowed to do this to another citizen. This is the state being excessively entangled in a religious ceremony. Students can "witness" to other students anytime they want as long as they don't interfere with the educational process. And, the student who is being "witnessed" to has the freedom to get up and leave or to tell the person to go away!! Or stop what they don't want to hear what they have to say. In this bill, that option is not there. The other students become a captive audience to the speaker.
10. Rep. Kern stated in the House debate that the bill would save money and prevent lawsuits. An almost identical bill in Texas that is now law has already resulted in lawsuits in at least two school districts. In opposing the Texas legislation the Dallas Morning News editorialized ‘Watch the Lawsuits Come Rolling in.”
11. Some attorneys for school boards in Texas have told their clients that they could not provide legal advice on how to put the policies into effect, but could only respond with advice on a given particular case. This is a result of the stealth and ambiguous language in the law.
12. Analyses of the constitutional and other problems with the almost identical Texas law are also available from organizations that fought the bill there, including the Texas Freedom Network, Texas Academy of Science, and Texas Citizens for Science. Many Texas educators, scientists and clergy members opposed the bill there.
13. About half of the language in HB 2633 only codifies what is already provided by former Supreme Court decisions. Students can pray in school, form religious clubs like any other student organizations, can meet at recess or before and after school at the flagpole for prayer, etc. There is absolutely no need for this part of the bill. Schools are already well aware of what is constitutional and what is not. Schools have policies in place that deal with students and their freedoms of religious expression. If a school becomes in violation of the federal law and case law, they can be sued and will lose if they are indeed not allowing a student to exercise their religious freedom. This law is not needed nor is it wanted. It will cause more harm than good.
14. Although the bill does not directly mention evolution, one major aim is to dilute science teaching. This has been made clear by statements of Oklahoma and Texas legislators in e-mails written in answer to voters who wrote in opposition to the bill (some of these e-mails are available and might be useful in a court case?). This is a reason that creationist and intelligent design proponents nationally have supported the legislation.
15. The economic impact should be considered. HB 2633 would not help Oklahoma recruit scientists, educators at all levels, and the high tech/med tech industry the State desires. The Governor of Kansas emphasized this important aspect when Kansas was dealing with the religious decisions of the Kansas State School Board, now reversed since the fundamentalist members lost their control in an election.
16. The following State and National organizations have prepared press releases and statements of why HB 2633 is bad for both religion and science and why it would reflect badly upon Oklahoma. These are available upon request:
Oklahomans for Excellence in Science Education
Oklahoma Academy of Science
Oklahoma Science Teachers Association
Oklahoma Mainstream Baptists
Oklahoma City Interfaith Alliance
Tulsa Interfaith Alliance
National office of Americans United for Separation of Church and State
Oklahoma Chapter, Americans United for Separation of Church and State
American Association for the Advancement of Science (World’ largest
science organization with millions of members)
American Institute of Biological Sciences
The Oklahoma State Schools Board also opposed the bill according to quotes in the printed media. The State Capitol coalition of education organizations/lobbyists also opposed the bill.
----------------------
Prepared by Victor H. Hutchison on 13 May 2008, with assistance from many others, including excellent points posted by kenleigha above. Hutchison is Founder and current President of Oklahomans for Science Education (OESE, http://www.bioscience.ou.edu/oese/) and George Lynn Cross Professor Emeritus, Department of Zoology at the University of Oklahoma. He can provide additional information and documents to support the points made above and can refer interested parties to other individuals that can supply expert opinions.
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Edited by - vhutchison on May 15 2008 18:34:13 |
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nipeche
Activist
460 Posts |
Posted - May 15 2008 : 22:23:02
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Can't we just let the Christian Reconstructionists just secede from the union? After decades of self rule, they would be bankrupt along with retarded from inbreeding (I’m sorry they already are) and we could buy the property back for a helluva bargain.
There is no debating these people, they believe that the Earth is 6k years old, in talking snakes, the Grand canyon as the result of Noah's flood, etc...
Ever read the book of Job? That's a guy you wanna work for!
The Dems that voted for this bill because they didn’t want to look “too secular” are worse than the Repubs that wrote it. With Democrats like that who needs Republicans.
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peacearena
Activist
127 Posts |
Posted - May 15 2008 : 23:06:54
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| Can I quote this in full on other sites? |
www.peacearena.org |
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vhutchison
Leader
1057 Posts |
Posted - May 16 2008 : 10:33:34
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Yes, please feel free to quote or use my analysis anywhere it may help!
I have distributed it to some legislators, State officials (e.g., Jari Askins at her request), Frosty Troy, etc., and posted it on some national science blogs. The large number of reads and responses on this thread likely show the interest in the dangers of Kern's bill. We hope there will be enough legislators to sustain a veto, should the Governor do that - many think he will if the votes are there.
Two legislators have agreed to ask the Attorney General for his opinion on whether parts of the bill are constitutional. Calls to the Governor's Office will still be very helpful! Another national scientific society, the Animal Behavior Society, added a letter to the Governor today seeking his veto.
I am now off to Cornbread and Beans (Cleveland County) in the hope that I can ask Rep.Inman, a Democrat, why he voted with Kern at every turn, like some others who do not always act like a Democrat. But, of course, he is far from alone on this! |
Edited by - vhutchison on May 16 2008 10:41:29 |
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Michael
Grassroots
69 Posts |
Posted - May 17 2008 : 20:29:43
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Mods, should not this thread be a sticky until such time as the bill is defeated or becomes an unconstitutional law?
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vhutchison
Leader
1057 Posts |
Posted - May 17 2008 : 21:09:55
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Michael: Yes, a sticky would help!
I did warn Rep. Scott Inman before hand that I would ask him at the Cornbread and Beans meeting about his vote on HB 2633.
I was able to ask Rep. Inman two questions: (1) Why in the World would you vote for Kern’s awful religious bill? (2) Would you commit to joining the three other Democratic Representatives here today and support a veto by the Governor?
In answer to (1) he gave a somewhat valid – and expected - answer. He said that he had to consider what his constituents wanted if he was to stay in office. It is certainly true that most of the time a legislator must represent his district or he/she would not be re-elected. However, votes not only affect a district, they also apply to the entire State. Thus, there should be times where the entire State should be considered over perceived opinions of a single district. In this case, he apparently believes that his district comes first, which is his choice and in which we disagree. It is sometimes a tough choice for a politician. This is the main reason, I think, that many, especially on this forum, decry “DINOs,” but it is a political reality that we must deal with.
In answer to (2) he said that he would consider it, which likely means that he would not vote to sustain a veto. I remain hopeful, however, that he will read my analysis (posted above; I gave him a copy) and come to realize that this IS an important item that would harm the entire State.
Inman overall has done a good job. He is a nice, bright Representative and I would probably support him if I were in his District. In his presentation and in the discussion, he did well and said things most of us would accept. He is certainly better than any Republican that might run there. So, we can criticize him severely for this particular vote, but not condemn him overall.
BTW, Rep. Ryan Kiesel (Seminole), who also spoke at the meeting, was excellent in his presentation and is FIRMLY opposed to HB 2633.
For those who will help, send messages to House members to sustain a veto of HB 2633, should the Governor decide this is that important.
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Edited by - vhutchison on May 17 2008 21:15:52 |
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vhutchison
Leader
1057 Posts |
Posted - May 18 2008 : 13:58:15
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I have been surveying national blogs, especially those that cover science and religion, and found numerous comments that made awful aspersions about Oklahoma and Oklahomans. Most were in response to posts about Kern's HB 2633. Kern lately has probably done more with her gay bashing and religious bill to harm the State's reputation than our Congressional delegation! If HB 2633 becomes law, we can expect more derogatory remarks.
Here are some nasty comments about the State resulting from Sally Kern’s HB 2633 as posted as coments on Pharyngula (http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/ ), just one science blog are below. Pharyngula is one of the most popular science blogs. I did not list some with foul language. Similar comments are on other blog sites.
COMMENTS MADE IN RESPONSE TO A POST ENTITLED “GET READY OKLAHOMA – SALLY KERN IS ABOUT TO SCREW YOU OVER”
“And I thought Texas was bad!”
“{Oklahoma is} working hard to become a very stupid state.”
“I was happy to escape Oklahoma.”
“This is insane.”
“I am proud to live in the relatively progressive state of Tennessee.”
“This country is going to hell. Or at least Oklahoma! Is.”
“My six years in Stillwater was as close to the mythical hell as I ever hope to get.”
“I live in Oklahoma and I can tell you she SCARES me. Luckily I am moving to Portland, OR, as soon as I can.”
“Oklahoma for all the hard work done in [list of other states], still stands in quietconfiDUNCE as the dumbest state in our union.”
“… the supporting cast of ignornat and evil in OK’s state and national politics appear unrivalled.”
“I will do everything I can to avoid Oklahoma.”
Just a sampling of the results of Kern’s crap.
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Edited by - vhutchison on May 18 2008 16:39:51 |
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Michael
Grassroots
69 Posts |
Posted - May 18 2008 : 19:03:56
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Though the primary effort right now must be aimed at getting the governor to veto the bill and to get the legislature to sustain the veto, the question becomes what happens if the pro-science people lose this one.
Well obviously while winning in the legislature is far better than winning in court that option might have to be explored if the bill becomes unconstitutional law. I suppose we would have to wait until the law is used as an excuse to teach some form of creationism in science class. That would give concerned parents standing to take it to court. If there is a real lawyer in the house, please correct me if I am in error. Of course it would need some kind of organizational support. Is the local branch of the ACLU up to the task?
Of course a court case would really make our state look bad. Our politicians would be foolish if they they would ultimately prevail there especially if Obama wins the White House and is able to appoint several new justices.
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1968 Activist
Leader
4654 Posts |
Posted - May 19 2008 : 02:29:13
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| Scopes revisited. |
Jeff
"Few will have the greatness to bend history itself; but each of us can work to change a small portion of events, and in the total of all those acts will be written the history of this generation...Each time a man stands up for an ideal, or acts to improve the lot of others, or strikes out against injustice, he sends forth a tiny ripple of hope...those ripples build a current that can sweep down the mightiest walls of oppression and resistance."
Robert F. Kennedy |
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vhutchison
Leader
1057 Posts |
Posted - May 19 2008 : 13:49:10
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Michael: I am not an attorney, but here is my understanding from trials elsewhere.
For a court trial there would need to be someone with 'standing' - e.g., a parent whose child was exposed to religious indoctrination of some sort (not unlikely if HB 2633 becomes law). Such a case would be of interest to ACLU, but they are always short of funds and usually take on only cases that are likely to set important precedents. I am not sure Oklahoma ACLU has the resources, but they could certainly appeal to national ACLU for help.
I recently was approached by an attorney who wanted to know about HB 2633, I told him of the provisions, legal problems in Texas, etc.,
and he became excited about the possibility of challenging HB 2633 if it becomes law. He stated that he would LOVE to challenge it in court.
Let's hope the Governor vetos and the House sustains it so we do not have to go to Federal Court!
BTW. Scopes LOST the famous trial, but it was overthrown in the appeals court because the original judge fined Scopes $100 when he was authorized to fine him no more than $50. Thus,the case never went to higher courts, as both sides wanted, especially to get it to the Supreme Court. |
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Michael
Grassroots
69 Posts |
Posted - May 19 2008 : 20:30:40
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quote:
Originally posted by vhutchison
Michael: I am not an attorney, but here is my understanding from trials elsewhere.
For a court trial there would need to be someone with 'standing' - e.g., a parent whose child was exposed to religious indoctrination of some sort (not unlikely if HB 2633 becomes law). Such a case would be of interest to ACLU, but they are always short of funds and usually take on only cases that are likely to set important precedents. I am not sure Oklahoma ACLU has the resources, but they could certainly appeal to national ACLU for help.
I recently was approached by an attorney who wanted to know about HB 2633, I told him of the provisions, legal problems in Texas, etc.,
and he became excited about the possibility of challenging HB 2633 if it becomes law. He stated that he would LOVE to challenge it in court.
I suppose the ACLU (or possible Americans United) might choose the best test case. If some other state gets the test case, would that mean we are stuck with the horrid law for the several years takes to get a ruling from SCotUS (or the appeals court if the case is in the same circuit as Oklahoma).
Re: Texas. Any links to actual problems in Texas.
quote:
Let's hope the Governor vetos and the House sustains it so we do not have to go to Federal Court!
Always the best way to go.
I am actually quite amazed that this garbage has been kept for so long since the Textbook Committee's disclaimer was tossed out by the attorney general.
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Michael
Grassroots
69 Posts |
Posted - May 19 2008 : 20:49:47
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quote:
Originally posted by drstones
If I were a public school teacher, and this law were to pass, I'd tempted to kill it with kindness by attaching a "Kern Box" to the end of an assignment, wherein students might place any irrelevant commentary, religious or otherwise, so that it would not interfere, with, you know, actually assessing their ability to complete the assignment.
Somehow I missed this post...
How about a statement in the instructions of every test or assignment: give answers of according to mainstream scientific consensus. No matter what one's religious beliefs are it does contradict them to be able to state what mainstream scientists actually believe. Anyone have suggestions for good wording?
It could be amusing to have the anti-science guys try to say it is somehow unfair that students need to know what mainstream science actually supports. If they file suit it would be an almost literally be an admission of the religious nature of the HB 2633.
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vhutchison
Leader
1057 Posts |
Posted - May 19 2008 : 21:13:03
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| Actually there have been creationist/religious bills in every legislative session (except two years ago), since 1990. In some years there have been several, some authored by Silly Sally. There were two this year in addition to Kern's that did not get heard. We won a few years ago by only one vote in the Senate, thanks to then pro tem Senator Cal Hobson - and the Democrats were in charge then! |
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Aimee in OKC
Leader
2123 Posts |
Posted - May 19 2008 : 21:20:57
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Michael, here's a bit about a Texas case:
[BEGIN SNIP]
Texas School Board Agrees To Stop Teaching Unconstitutional Bible Class In Public Schools (3/5/2008)
Agreement With Ector County School Board Will Prevent Unconstitutional Curriculum From Being Taught
ODESSA, TX – The Ector County School Board agreed today to stop teaching a course in its public schools that unconstitutionally promotes a particular interpretation of the Bible that is not shared by Jews, Catholics, Orthodox Christians, and most Protestants.
The agreement settles a federal lawsuit filed in May 2007 that was brought by eight Odessa parents and taxpayers who argued that the course, created by a religious organization, violated their constitutional right to religious liberty by promoting specific religious doctrines to children in their community. The parents were represented by the American Civil Liberties Union, the ACLU of Texas, People For the American Way Foundation and the law firm of Jenner and Block LLP.
“This agreement is a victory for those who wish religious education to be in the hands of parents and not public school officials,” said Dr. T. Jeremy Gunn, Director of the ACLU’s Program on Freedom of Religion and Belief. “It is unacceptable for government officials to decide which religious beliefs are true and which are not and then use the public school system as a means of proselytizing children.”
*****
Among other things, the Bible course required students to give “true” or “false” answers to questions that should be a matter of religious faith. Public school teachers sought to promote religious life lessons by having students memorize biblical passages and then discuss how the passages affected their lives, the groups filing the lawsuit said. The course also presented an unbalanced view of American history that promoted specific religious beliefs that is in conflict with objective scholarly standards.
Douglas C. Hildebrand, an ordained elder and deacon at a local Presbyterian Church and one of the longtime Odessa residents who was a plaintiff in the lawsuit, said it is inappropriate for one set of religious beliefs to be promoted over others.
“Religion is an essential component of my life and the life of my family, but this course did nothing more than advocate certain religious views that are not shared by everyone,” Hildebrand said. “It seems as though a church had invaded the public school system - and it wasn’t my church.”
*****
According to Daniel Mach, the Director of Litigation of the ACLU’s Program on Freedom of Religion and Belief, Ector County school officials now have a much clearer understanding of what the Constitution does and does not allow.
“The agreement gives the school board a clear roadmap if it decides to adopt a new course,” Mach said. “We trust that any future curriculum will be appropriate for students of all faiths – including nonbelievers – and that it will respect the religious liberty of all Odessans.”
[END SNIP]
http://www.aclu.org/religion/schools/34356prs20080305.html
*********
And last year in New Jersey, a high school student's actions:
[BEGIN SNIP]
A Student of Uncommon Courage: Matthew LaClair
June 12, 2007
When Matthew LaClair heard his popular high-school history teacher tell students that only Christians will go to heaven, and that evolution has no basis in science, he knew something was wrong. Unlike most 16-year-olds, he knew it was his duty to do something about it.
Matthew taped the teacher proselytizing in his public school classroom, and insisted that the school take action. Instead, the backlash was swift and furious. The school refused to acknowledge Matthew’s complaint was well-founded, and the superintendent praised the teacher in news reports. Matthew was harassed by fellow students in Kearny, New Jersey. He lost friends and was ostracized.
Matthew and his parents stood firm, and made it clear to the school district that a lawsuit was possible. Finally the school board agreed to a settlement. Teachers and students will be trained about the separation of church and state, and the difference between the scientific theory of evolution and the religious belief in creationism. Months after the whole story began, the school board also agreed to commend Matthew for his "courage and integrity."
[END SNIP]
http://www.pfaw.org/pfaw/general/default.aspx?oid=24210
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.........*** Freedom is the distance between church and state. ***
...................... Believe In Personal Privacy? Vote For Democrats.
........................- - - - - -> The media is only as liberal as its conservative owners allow. <- - - - - - -
..........................................Corporate behavior is human nature written large.
..................................................Health In$urance Is NOT Health Care! |
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Michael
Grassroots
69 Posts |
Posted - May 20 2008 : 22:36:36
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quote:
Originally posted by vhutchison
Actually there have been creationist/religious bills in every legislative session (except two years ago), since 1990. In some years there have been several, some authored by Silly Sally. There were two this year in addition to Kern's that did not get heard. We won a few years ago by only one vote in the Senate, thanks to then pro tem Senator Cal Hobson - and the Democrats were in charge then!
Bad writing on my part. I know about the past bills. I am amazed that none have yet become law in this state. Hopefully the streak can be kept up.
In case anyone is interested, one can join the National Center for Science Education, the national organization for fighting creationism in the schools, via:
http://www.ncseweb.org/membership.asp
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vhutchison
Leader
1057 Posts |
Posted - May 21 2008 : 15:57:34
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| That Oklahoma has avoided creationist/religious crap so far is due in large part to dedicated groups of activists that have engaged in the legislative process by letting law makers know thier opinions, writing letters to editors and op-eds in newspapers, etc., and in attempting to educate legislators and the public about the issues. (i apologize for that atrocious sentence!) |
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vhutchison
Leader
1057 Posts |
Posted - May 22 2008 : 17:49:29
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Let's see what the Gov. does after the Lege adjourns sine die in one week (Friday 30 May, the scheduled date to end this session), unless they pull a 'stop the clock' as they did a few years back!
Several folks, including a well-known lobbyist told me they sent the Governor messages to veto HB 2633 over the past three days. Good for them!
[Date of adjournment corrected to 30 May] |
Edited by - vhutchison on May 22 2008 20:49:32 |
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Michael
Grassroots
69 Posts |
Posted - May 22 2008 : 18:14:51
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quote:
Originally posted by vhutchison
Let's see what the Gov. does after the Lege adjourns sine die tomorrow (Friday 23 May, the scheduled date to end this session), unless they pull a 'stop the clock' as they did a few years back!
Several folks, including a well-known lobbyist told me they sent the Governor messages to veto HB 2633 over the past three days. Good for them!
I am not nearly familiar with the state rules as I am with the federal, so a quick question.
Could Gov. Henry pull off a "Pocket Veto" because the legislature has adjourned? That would be nice as there would be no need to sustain it if I understand correctly.
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vhutchison
Leader
1057 Posts |
Posted - May 22 2008 : 18:39:38
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| Michael: Yes. |
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vhutchison
Leader
1057 Posts |
Posted - May 22 2008 : 21:38:42
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| Correction - I will get it correct eventually! The Lege by law must finish by 30 May. However, they passed a resolution earlier and it will really end tomorrow, 23 May. Just as well, given how really bad this session has been overall. |
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vhutchison
Leader
1057 Posts |
Posted - May 23 2008 : 19:07:41
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HB 2633 that allowed students to express religious viewpoints in classroom work passed the House on Friday, 16 May. But Rep. John Wright, R-Broken Arrow, held it on the calendar for reconsideration of the emergency clause that did not pass.
According to Governor Henry’s spokesman Paul Sund, it did not arrive in the governor's office until Monday, May 19. Sund said if the session ends as scheduled Friday, the governor then has 15 days to sign legislation or allow it to die. The Legislature by law must end by 30 May, but a resolution this year ended the session early on 23 May. Thus, the Governor must sign or veto the bill by early June or the bill will not become law due to a pocket veto.
Thus, messages to the Governor asking him NOT to sign HB 2633 will still be helpful. Messages can be sent by telephone (405-521-2342) or e-mail t the Governor's web site (http://www.governor.state.ok.us/) Click ‘contact’ on the ribbon near the top, then scroll down on left and click on ‘Send the Governor a Message.’ Fill out the simple form and include a short message.
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Edited by - vhutchison on May 23 2008 19:10:49 |
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okiecrat
Leader
3468 Posts |
Posted - May 24 2008 : 12:46:02
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| Victor, do you have access to a working fax number for the governor's office? The one listed on the governor's website (521-3353) does not seem to connect to a fax machine. |
Gary D. Klein
quote:
“Politics is like the circus; the worst job is cleaning up after the elephants."
James Carville
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vhutchison
Leader
1057 Posts |
Posted - May 24 2008 : 13:02:25
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Gary: I do not have another FAX number for the governor. I will search and post, if I can find one. Maybe the Fax machine is off on the week end? ANY messages via any means, however, will help!
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Several individuals off this forum have asked about the details of a 'pocket veto.' Here is what the Oklahoma Constitution says on the topic:
(Thanks to Darin Fox through Dan Gibbens, OU Law School, for sending me this.)
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OK Const. Art. 6, § 11
Constitution of the State of Oklahoma [Annotated] (Refs & Annos)
Article VI. Executive Department
Governor
§ 11. Approval or veto of bills--Passage over veto--Failure to return bill
Every bill which shall have passed the Senate and House of Representatives, and every resolution requiring the assent of both branches of the Legislature, shall, before it becomes a law, be presented to the Governor; if he approve, he shall sign it; if not, he shall return it with his objections to the house in which it shall have originated, who [FN1] shall enter the objections at large in
the Journal and proceed to reconsider it. If, after such econsideration,
two-thirds of the members elected to that house shall agree to pass the bill or joint resolution, it shall be sent, together with the objections, to the other house, by which it shall likewise be reconsidered; and, if approved by two-thirds of the members elected to that house, it shall become a law, notwithstanding the objections of the Governor. In all such cases, the vote in both houses shall be determined by yeas and nays, and the names of the members voting shall be entered on the Journal of each house respectively. If any bill or resolution shall not be returned by the Governor within five days (Sundays excepted) after it shall have been presented to him, the same shall be a law in
like manner as if he had signed it, unless the Legislature shall, by their adjournment, prevent its return, in which case it shall not become a law without the approval of the Governor. No bill shall become a law after the final adjournment of the Legislature, unless approved by the Governor within fifteen days after such adjournment.
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The last sentence explains a ‘pocket veto’ where the Governor takes no action within the 15 days after adjournment.
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Edited by - vhutchison on May 24 2008 13:05:07 |
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vhutchison
Leader
1057 Posts |
Posted - May 24 2008 : 13:19:23
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Checked several other web sources and found only this Fax number for Governor Henry, the same one posted on the Governor's web site:
(405) 521- 3353 |
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okiecrat
Leader
3468 Posts |
Posted - May 24 2008 : 16:11:57
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When I dial the number, I get a recording that says it is "not in service". My approach to the Governor is that this is a matter of parents rights to shield their children from unwanted proselytizing and that this act makes it impossible for parents to exercise their natural right to direct the religious education of their children.
I have found that a letter sent via fax is the uncommon route that gains the best attention. |
Gary D. Klein
quote:
“Politics is like the circus; the worst job is cleaning up after the elephants."
James Carville
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vhutchison
Leader
1057 Posts |
Posted - May 24 2008 : 18:47:33
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| Gary: You are correct about a Fax having more 'impact.' Perhaps the very best is a hard copy delivered to the Governor's office, but that is difficult for many. Press releases and statements from organizations were sent or taken to Henry's Chief of Staff (perhaps the best way to get attention). Try the Fax again Monday morning? |
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vhutchison
Leader
1057 Posts |
Posted - May 26 2008 : 09:33:21
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| Gary: Let us know if the Governor's Fax number works tomorrow. Others may wish to follow suit and send him a Fax (or at least a phone call). He has just a few day to decide. |
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vhutchison
Leader
1057 Posts |
Posted - May 26 2008 : 14:08:13
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Tulsa World Editorial on HB 2633
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"Religion and homework
by: DAVID AVERILL Editor, Editorial Pages
5/25/2008 12:00 AM
'Antidiscrimination' act unnecessary and a bad idea
Jenny and Billy are taking a geography test and the question is, "How are mountains formed?"
Jenny writes that mountains are formed over long periods of time by tremendous forces in the Earth. The forces include volcanic activity, erosion and disturbances or uplifts in the Earth's crust.
Billy answers that mountains are created by God's miracles.
Is Jenny's answer correct, or is Billy's? Or will their teacher score both answers correct? Under a bill now awaiting the governor's signature to become law in Oklahoma, that's not at all clear.
House Bill 2633 mandates that school districts "shall treat the voluntary expression by a student of a religious viewpoint, if any, on an otherwise permissible subject in the same manner the district treats the voluntary expression by a student of a secular or other viewpoint ... and may not discriminate against the student based on a religious viewpoint expressed by the student on an otherwise permissible subject."
It goes on to say in the next section that "students may express their beliefs about religion in homework, artwork, and other written and oral assignments free from discrimination based on the religious content of their submissions."
Those two unwieldy sentences can certainly be read to require that a teacher accept a students' religion-based explanation of a natural occurrence or phenomenon. In other words, Billy's answer under HB 2633 might be as correct as Jenny's.
Another hypothetical: Teacher asks the class, "What is a rainbow?" Jenny answers that a rainbow is a prism effect that occurs from the refraction of sunlight through water in the atmosphere. Billy answers that a rainbow is God's promise never again to wipe out mankind by flood.
Billy's answer jibes with biblical teaching, but is it of any real value in an educational setting outside of Sunday school? Again, Billy's teacher very well might be required to score Billy's answer as correct.
HB 2633 also includes a provision that "Homework and classroom assignments shall be judged by ordinary academic standards of substance and relevance and against other legitimate pedagogical concerns identified by the school district."
What does that mean? The terms "ordinary academic standards" and "legitimate pedagogical concerns" would seem to suggest that teachers could grade schoolwork exclusively on accepted scientific explanations of how things happen. But if that is the case that provision of the bill would appear to be in conflict with the other provisions.
Here's an obvious prediction: Sorting out what HB 2633 says or doesn't say will require lawsuits.
Rep. Sally Kern, R-Oklahoma City, originally introduced the "Religious Viewpoint Antidiscrimination Act" in another bill, which a few days ago appeared to be dead. But Sen. Jim Williamson, R-Tulsa, resurrected it, amending HB 2633 to include Kern's language. The measure passed the Senate 48-0 and the House 70-28. Those margins make the bill almost veto-proof, so it is likely to become law regardless of what Gov. Brad Henry might think about it.
This bill is unneeded. It attempts to fix a problem that doesn't exist. Worse, its muddy and unwieldy language is bound to cause problems for school districts attempting to implement it.
While Kern and Williamson titled the measure the "Religious Viewpoint Antidiscrimination Act," they could have just as aptly called it the "Full Employment for Lawyers Act."
David Averill, 581-8333
david.averill@tulsaworld.com
Copyright © 2008, World Publishing Co. All rights reserved"
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Rob Abiera
Activist
256 Posts |
Posted - May 27 2008 : 08:10:45
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Thanks Vic for posting the Tulsa World editorial.
And while I'm at it, I want to make an observation about the comments section at the editorial's page at http://www.tulsaworld.com/opinion/article.aspx?subjectID=61&articleID=20080525_215_G1_hAntid542700
These comments sections on the websites of major newspapers could be very powerful tools in that they make it possible for people to bypass the editing process of the traditional "letter-to-the-editor" (notoriously restrictive at some papers - such as The Oklahoman) and encourage debate on a paper's editorial stance in real time. I suggest that we avail ourselves of such tools at every opportunity. |
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Rob Abiera
Activist
256 Posts |
Posted - May 27 2008 : 08:18:34
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| AND I think we should all say THANK YOU to the Tulsa World for 'getting it'! This is a major victory for progress here in Oklahoma! |
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vhutchison
Leader
1057 Posts |
Posted - May 28 2008 : 21:09:41
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Although it is not likely that actions taken by a school/school board in compliance with HB 2633 would fall under the provisions below in the OK Constitution, it is possible that any policy that provided for a given religion could apply. However, it is more likely that the bill (SB 661) that provided for charter schools in this legislative session could cause problems. As some Senators pointed out the charter school bill was really a voucher system and the bill would not prevent religious private schools from posing as 'charter schools'.
The Oklahoma Constitution is actually more specific than the U.S. Constitution in regard to the separation of church and state. I bet few of our legislators know what this section says:
OKLAHOMA CONSTITUTION
Article II – Bill of Rights
Section 5. No public money or property shall ever be appropriated, applied, donated, or used, directly or indirectly, for the use, benefit, or support of any sect, church, denomination, or system of religion, or for the use, benefit, or support of any priest, preacher, minister, or other religious teacher or dignitary, or sectarian institution as such.
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Edited by - vhutchison on May 28 2008 21:22:00 |
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okiecrat
Leader
3468 Posts |
Posted - May 29 2008 : 12:42:41
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| Victor, I finally got my fax through. I have a dyslexia type problem with number pairs especially when there are repeating digits so I was reading 3353 and typing 3533. Felt kinda foolish when I figured it out. |
Gary D. Klein
quote:
“Politics is like the circus; the worst job is cleaning up after the elephants."
James Carville
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vhutchison
Leader
1057 Posts |
Posted - May 29 2008 : 18:11:03
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| Thanks Gary! Hopefully, others will send a Fax as well to the Governor's Office to oppose HB 2633, especially as a decision comes shortly. June 7 is the last day for signing or veto. After that it would be a pocket veto. |
Edited by - vhutchison on May 29 2008 18:12:53 |
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Michael
Grassroots
69 Posts |
Posted - May 31 2008 : 20:25:24
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quote:
Originally posted by vhutchison
Thanks Gary! Hopefully, others will send a Fax as well to the Governor's Office to oppose HB 2633, especially as a decision comes shortly. June 7 is the last day for signing or veto. After that it would be a pocket veto.
I guess that no news continues to be good news?
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I might mention briefly that the Sam Nobel Oklahoma Museum of Natural History just opened a new temporary exhibit on a gigantic prehistoric crocodile and opened remodeled the Paleozoic Gallery. Visiting and supporting the museum is one way to support Oklahoma science education. For those in the Norman area, it is well worth a visit. And they don't bow down to fundamentalist pressure -- they even have a permanent evolution exhibit. If you like what you see consider joining.
http://www.snomnh.ou.edu/
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vhutchison
Leader
1057 Posts |
Posted - June 02 2008 : 13:59:28
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| No news, so far, is good news. If Henry has not acted by the end of 7 June, we might get a pocket veto. The status of the Governor's actions on bills can be followed on his web site (http://www.gov.ok.gov/index.php) by clicking on link at the bottom right ("Track the Legislation...". By typing in the bill number in the box below 'BILL' and hitting return, one can avoid having to go through the long list of bills received by the Governor. |
Edited by - vhutchison on June 02 2008 14:05:03 |
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Michael
Grassroots
69 Posts |
Posted - June 02 2008 : 20:34:43
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quote:
Originally posted by vhutchison
No news, so far, is good news. If Henry has not acted by the end of 7 June, we might get a pocket veto. The status of the Governor's actions on bills can be followed on his web site (http://www.gov.ok.gov/index.php) by clicking on link at the bottom right ("Track the Legislation...". By typing in the bill number in the box below 'BILL' and hitting return, one can avoid having to go through the long list of bills received by the Governor.
Good. Good. With any luck it will just die.
Re: Museum. The new Paleozoic Gallery is extremely good. There are a few features that are not yet completed and some of the panels need to be backlit for easier reading, but other than that it is really impressive. And evolutionary concepts are integrated into gallery starting literally from the very first panel and repeatedly discussed throughout -- explicatively and unapologetically. Kern will not be pleased. 
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vhutchison
Leader
1057 Posts |
Posted - June 03 2008 : 16:55:59
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Today I received a letter from Jeanette Nance, Director of Constituent Services in the Governor's office, thanking me for my thoughts on HB 2633 with information on how to follow the Governor's actions on bills (given above), etc.
This is likely a form letter, but is the first time I have gotten such a reply from messages sent to the Governor's office. Has anyone else received an acknowledgment of a message on HB 2633? |
Edited by - vhutchison on June 03 2008 17:17:55 |
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Wanda Jo
Leader
1355 Posts |
Posted - June 03 2008 : 17:15:30
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| Nope |
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edwardwhiteokc
Leader
USA
2329 Posts |
Posted - June 03 2008 : 18:53:38
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| This is the topic that will not die. Some posts come and go, but this one is here to stay. |
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crusty-rusty
Organizer
France
940 Posts |
Posted - June 04 2008 : 03:25:01
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quote:
I might mention briefly that the Sam Nobel Oklahoma Museum of Natural History just opened a new temporary exhibit on a gigantic prehistoric crocodile and opened remodeled the Paleozoic Gallery. Visiting and supporting the museum is one way to support Oklahoma science education. For those in the Norman area, it is well worth a visit. And they don't bow down to fundamentalist pressure -- they even have a permanent evolution exhibit. If you like what you see consider joining.
http://www.snomnh.ou.edu/
Cool - we'll be back in OK for a month in July. We've always enjoyed the museum and look forward to seeing the new exhibits. |
One finds what one is looking for.
Does anybody else smell frog boiling?? |
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Michael
Grassroots
69 Posts |
Posted - June 05 2008 : 13:51:25
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quote:
Originally posted by edwardwhiteokc
This is the topic that will not die. Some posts come and go, but this one is here to stay.
Assuming that Gov. Henry lets the bill die the death it so richly deserves then the question becomes "What now?"
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rokn
Activist
209 Posts |
Posted - June 05 2008 : 14:11:35
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| as in most bad pennies it will reappear next year, unless Ms.Kern is deafeated in Nov. |
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vhutchison
Leader
1057 Posts |
Posted - June 05 2008 : 19:33:10
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As pointed out above, Oklahoma has had bills like Kern's for the last ten years (except for 2007). Although it will be great to see Silly Sally defeated, creationist crap will continue and we will have to fight it, along with other attempts of the far religious right to impose THEIR narrow view of religion upon all of us.
I fully expect that next session we will see the introduction of the so-called 'Academic Freedom Act." This is a coordinated national strategy pushed by the creationist/ID Discovery Institute that has seen almost identical bills in several states where it has often died (in South Carolina this week), but is still very much alive in Louisiana, for example. The act simply is an attempt to sneak religion into science courses. They see this as a foot in the door for more extensive intrusions of religion into public schools, despite all Federal court trials that have denied earlier similar attempts.
BTW: This VERY long thread WILL end - by Saturday next at midnight the bill will have been signed by Henry, vetoed, or it will have died with a pocket veto! |
Edited by - vhutchison on June 05 2008 19:36:36 |
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okiecrat
Leader
3468 Posts |
Posted - June 06 2008 : 10:01:13
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| With less than 38 hours to go, I get the feeling that if Gov. Henry was going to sign this one he would have already. Fingers and toes both crossed that it is headed for a pocket veto. I would have been happier with a regular veto but the pocket veto is acceptable. |
Gary D. Klein
quote:
“Politics is like the circus; the worst job is cleaning up after the elephants."
James Carville
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Edited by - okiecrat on June 06 2008 10:02:03 |
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nipeche
Activist
460 Posts |
Posted - June 06 2008 : 11:37:17
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Will the sheeple in the State legis. override his veto?
You know it would take participation from the Dem. representatives to accomplish that, and they haven't had much of a spine lately. |
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Wanda Jo
Leader
1355 Posts |
Posted - June 06 2008 : 11:47:42
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James Nimmo
Leader
USA
1660 Posts |
Posted - June 06 2008 : 12:43:32
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I could NOT get the URL stated in the official letter just about this reply to work. A bit odd isn't it that the office doesn't know this?
This is the one that worked for me.
http://www.governor.state.ok.us/billtrack/index.php?clear=all |
Edited by - James Nimmo on June 06 2008 12:44:34 |
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Classen
Activist
USA
279 Posts |
Posted - June 06 2008 : 13:48:19
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| The Bill Was vetoed by Gov. Henry |
Classen Boulevard |
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m2violin
Leader
1524 Posts |
Posted - June 06 2008 : 14:13:30
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| HOORAY!!! Good on you, Guv!!! |
Martha
We are the change we have been looking for. |
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tvlampboy
Activist
USA
300 Posts |
Posted - June 08 2008 : 08:51:51
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Sadly, it looks as though the wide margin by which this bill was passed in both the House and the Senate will make it law -- veto or not. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.
The legal morass that will result from Kern's trainwreck of a bill is just about to start forming. Anyone care to take bets how much it will end up costing this state in wasted legal expenses alone? |
"Free societies are societies in motion, and with motion comes tension, dissent, friction. Free people strike sparks, and those sparks are the best evidence of freedom's existence."
Sir Salman Rushdie
*****
"If you believe in fairies at the bottom of the garden, you are deemed fit for the bin. If you believe in transubstantiation, parthenogenesis and the rest of it, you’re deemed fit to run the country."
Jonathan Meades
*****
"My last vestige of 'hands off religion' respect disappeared in the smoke and choking dust of September 11th, 2001, followed by the 'National Day of Prayer,' when prelates and pastors did their tremulous Martin Luther King impersonations and urged people of mutually incompatible faiths to hold hands, united in homage to the very force that caused the problem in the first place."
Dr. Richard Dawkins |
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vhutchison
Leader
1057 Posts |
Posted - June 08 2008 : 11:34:25
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TVLB: The bill is dead. We can expect other such bills again next session, as we have had now for about 10 years. Fortunately, all have been killed, but only sometimes by a close vote or committee kills, thanks mostly to the Democratic leadership.
I expect next year to see 'Academic Freedom Act' bills like those in Texas, Florida, South Carolina, Missouri, Louisiana and elsewhere. The religious far right will not stop and we must not stop opposition. At least we are not as bad right now as TX and LA where they have multiple problems in the legislatures, state school boards and local school boards. Also, see my comments on the other thread about this bill being a part of a national effort by theocrats. |
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